Jeff Echols, Owner of echoEngagement a brand consulting service, and the host of his own podcast Build Your Brand, spoke with us this week on Revivify. His decades of experience and insight can help us re-think the branding of our businesses. Jeff shared with us some of his favorite insights and truths about marketing and branding in the construction industry.

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Jeff Echols Revivify Podcast S02 E05

Grace Mase:  00:04

Hello, and welcome to the revivify podcast. I'm your host, Grace Mase. Today I'm here with Jeff Echols, director of Brand Strategy of Ultra-Architect and President and Chief Strategy Officer of Eco Engagement. He helps AE&C which is architect engineers and contractors innovate their way to practices driven by purpose and improve their business by optimizing their branding and positioning. I'm so excited to speak with Jeff today here on the revivify podcast. Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Echols:  00:46

Thanks Grace, appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

Grace Mase:  00:49

Well, you're fascinating person so please share with us your journey, how you got started and where you are now.

Jeff Echols:  00:58

Okay, how far back do you want me to go? My background is in architecture. I grew up in the south around a lot of agrarian architecture, fascinated by barns and old county seats and things like that. My dad was transferred to Chicago when I was a kid and so I spent a lot of time when my mom would stay at home with the three of us the kids. She is a lifelong learner and an explorer and she took us to see all of the Frank Lloyd Wright projects around Chicago.

So those things were a big influence to me which drove me essentially to architecture school. So, I studied architecture, have a couple of degrees in design, went into the profession, spent 23-25 years something like that in firms, small and large. And I like to say that one of the best things that happened to me and this is at no fault of my own, I have to thank others for this was that one day someone came up and tapped me on the shoulder. I was just maybe a few months, maybe a year or so out of school, someone came up and tapped me on the shoulder and said “hey, you're pretty good at these graphics, won’t you go help the marketing team with this deadline that they're working on. You're pretty good with writing those things, why won’t you go help the business development team with this thing that we're working on for Friday.” And at the time, I thought okay, well, that's interesting. What I didn't realize is they were opening the door. Like I said just a few months or a year or so out of school, they're opening the door and showing me that there's this thing called The Business of Architecture which really eventually started to define my career path. And so that in looking back, that's I guess where it started. Worked just like a lot of young architecture grads do CAD, eventually BIM, project management, things like that. But the longer I got into my career, the more I followed that tangent to the business side of architecture and that's really my focus now, for all AEC. But really the business of AEC if you want to say it that way.

Grace Mase:  03:21

That's amazing. I think for many of us who went through the training, architecture school engineering or construction we learn the traits. We'd love the craft but we're never taught in terms of operation, business development, management and so what you're offering is so desperately needed in our industry.

Jeff Echols:  03:43

And it's one of the reasons that I was offered the opportunity last semester, so the fall semester of the 2021 school year. I guess it would be to teach pro practice and I jumped at that opportunity for exactly the reason that you're talking about. And you know, I jumped at it with a caveat because when I was approached about it they gave me the syllabus from the professor that had been teaching it that was not going to be returning and I looked at the syllabus and I went my gosh, this is probably the exact same. Some of the speakers in fact were the same speakers I graduated with a long time ago you know and I'm looking at this and what you're saying is absolutely correct. Of all the things that I learned in pro practice class, however many semesters we have of that when we're in school probably at least two if not more, of all of the things that I learned in pro practice, I probably remember almost none of them and a lot of that is because some of the things that are thrust into pro practice are not timely and I'm not knocking a lot of the things that are taught but there's no way that a student that's 18, 19, 20 years old, that's going to study this little piece of pro practice has been taught that way for the last 50 or 60 years. By the time they encounter that in their career, they're going to have no recollection and it will have changed and the bottom line is they're not actually learning anything about the Business of Architecture. Yes, they're learning about ethics and liability and important things like that but there's such a lack of business education and it's not just architecture. I mean, it's easy for us to talk about that because you and I both went to architecture school but the same is true for engineers and attorneys and doctors and others in professional services. But when we look at where we are right now, again, it doesn't matter if you're an architect or contractor, the majority of firms out there all across AEC are small firms. There's the Genslers are out there, and the Hunts are out there, the AECOM Hunts are out there and those are not the majority.

And so there's a huge need for students to come out with some business knowledge and whether or not they ever start their own thing, partner with anybody to run a small firm or their own firm or whatever, even if they don't do that, they'll be better employees because they'll have an understanding of why someone made this decision or why we're tracking these things so closely or why we're doing these things. So, I've enjoyed that opportunity and you know probably continue to rock the boat and push that agenda forward a little bit.

Grace Mase:  06:52

I love everything you said and the one specifically referenced a lot is why. Often times we're just focused on what is it that we get to do and how we're going to do it without fully understanding the basics of why. If we understand the why then we understand the purpose. It is easier to navigate through the rest of journey of what is it that we want to do, who we can bring along or how to actually implement this and that's a critical piece. And if you don't have that figured out or understand that basics then it can be challenging. And I really appreciate, I want to be in your class now.

Jeff Echols:  07:30

Oh, you might want to ask my students about that before you make that decision.

Grace Mase:  07:35

But it truly is how you look at it more holistically. And stepping back from the practice and looking almost outside in of how does it the one could do better. And when you talked about help people to focus on the purpose. Purpose is the why. If you understand the purpose and you understand your why, everyone on the team, doesn't matter if you're an owner, founder to the next person in line, everyone is focused on one thing is here's your journey and here's your destination. Here's our north start, how do we get there and who will be the right folks to be on the team to help us achieve that vision. I really appreciate that.

Jeff Echols:  08:15

There's something really fundamental about that is I've got a couple of podcasts and one of them is the build your brand podcast. When we launched that, we're getting ready to roll out season 2 now. But the idea behind that podcast is to take a big brand, one that's so removed from AEC that an architect or an engineer or whoever would have trouble drawing parallels. And that's the whole point is I don't want you to be able to look at this company, at this brand and say “oh yeah, but the sorts a little bit different.” I want you to look at that and go whoa, okay, that's different and then take that brand and break it down piece by piece, how they built it, the history of it, the brand story, how they marketed it, all those things, how they make their decisions and look for the lessons then, you know, we've dissected it now, what can we now learn from that, that we can bring back and apply?

And the thing that comes out of that, we take one brand every season. Season one was Southwest Airlines. And you look at that you go, oh my gosh, what's that got to do with construction. But when we look at these brands, when we look at the best known best loved brands in the world, they're almost always maybe you know, I don't like to be so definitive but maybe they all are purpose driven brands. And the thing that we have to understand, the thing that we have to realize about purpose and you said it right. A lot of people that will listen to this will say well yeah, we have a mission statement, we have a vision statement.

Purpose is different. The mission and vision are usually written by committee but they're usually written about us. This is our mission, this is our vision, we may touch on the client etc. Purpose is not like that. If you look at the purpose of Southwest Airlines or you know, pick your favorite brand, their purpose statement is about their customer or it's about their client and that's important to understand. And it's also just from a very basic point of view, if you're a contractor or you're an engineer or you're an attorney, I don't care, whatever, if you're in a business of some sort, you are here to serve your customer or your client. There's no woo woo to that. Some people think oh well, that's, you know, a servant leader. No, there's no woo woo to that because if you are not serving your customer or your client, what happens next? You're not in business, right?

I have these conversations sometimes and people talk about their repeat clients and relationships, their best clients, they've been working with this client for 15 or 20 years or whatever and if you want to test this idea, if you think I'm wrong about that then here's what you need to do. You need to go and find your best client, right? Someone that you've had been doing this type of work for that client for 15 or 20 years. Go to that client and stop serving them. Stop solving their problems and see how quickly they stop writing you checks. Yes, they enjoy the relationship. Yes, they invited you to their daughter's graduation or whatever but the minute that you stop solving their problems, the minute that you stop serving them, they stop paying you. You are no longer in business, right? So we have to have the purpose of making their lives better, whatever that means in their context and I think that's the real basic truth to all of this.

Grace Mase:  12:13

That's brilliant. Just let it sink in. That's actually brilliant because that's what we do. The reason why we went to the profession is not because we wanted to. Well, I think most of us went into the profession not because we think our design is going to be a reflection of who we are. It is how do we design something that will serve people and really deliver something that will transform their lives. That's all there is to it and delight them in some ways or forms just so we can experience that and for them more importantly to experience that. And that journey together is what makes our profession so profound and so interesting. That sounds like is your approach to brand development. It’s is no longer this alright, we have this logo, we're going to think of committee design of our mission, vision and our core values but really began to go deeper of what is it, why we do what we do?

Jeff Echols:  13:09

Yeah, it absolutely is. There's a lot of misconception in the branding world and some of it is understandable. It's a lot easier to sell logo design than to sell an idea, right? That’s something tangible but if you listen to somebody like Jeff Bezos, Amazon or even this is a much less known name but Marty Neumeier is the godfather of modern branding. I mean if you want to learn anything about branding, you go and you take Marty's masterclass or you read one of his books or whatever and Bezos and Marty say almost exactly the same thing.

And so, I don't know if Bezos heard it and took it or whatever but they both say that your brand is what other people say about you when you're not in the room. That's what a brand is. And I love the way it's phrased because when we think about your logo or your business card or the rap on your truck or your title block, job site signs, whatever it is, those are brand artifacts right. They are part of your brand certainly, they come from your brand certainly. Another way to think about it is that they are triggers. So if you have a longtime client or maybe even it's just somebody that's heard of you like oh, that's a familiar name or something like that. Those things that logo, the business card, whatever it's a trigger so when someone sees that oh, that's right. They were the ones that did this or I heard this about them or something like that, those are all triggers that are going to bring those stories back what other people are saying about you when you're not in the room. So, when we're “building brands” and if we want them to resonate, we do have to make them about our ideal clients. That's not to say that our ideal clients make us but we have to understand what they value and that's a big question but we have to understand what our ideal clients value and build a brand around that, right. If you don't want to be commoditized, you want to be delivering value, you want to be known as “wow, these people deliver results that we really value.” That's when you're not commoditized anymore, right? So, if we build brands around that, that's the best first step forward then logos, websites, all those things align along that line.

Grace Mase:  15:58

I love what you just said because oftentimes, I think we listen to our clients, they complain that well, my whatever, homeowner, investors, they're nickel and diming this. So you present your service as transactional as commodity versus what is the value you bring that they cannot go anywhere else. And I think that's where you hit the nail on the head of truly show them the value of why you do what you do and when they believe why you do what you do, they're in it with you.

Jeff Echols:  16:30

Yeah, that's a great point. And it's also important for us to remember that what they value is not actually what you do. That sounds really counterintuitive but you think about this idea of someone hiring an architect or a contractor or an attorney or a doctor. Nobody wants to hire an attorney but what they want is a contract that's negotiated in their favor. So, what they value is a really well written contract that helps them negotiate in their favor. No one wants to go to the doctor but they want to feel better. So what they value is that feeling that comes after when the cold is taken care of or whatever the problem was, no one wants to hire a contractor. No one wants to hire an architect. What they want is that place that the entire extended family can gather on that one beach that's so special to the family because they all grew up watching the sunsets there, whatever that is. Yes, they tell you what they value is on time and on budget. Of course, they say that, everybody says that but what's the result that they actually want, need down to a primal emotional level? That that's where value lies. How do we find that, how do we touch on that and how do we build a brand around that?

Grace Mase:  18:00

That's awesome. Yeah, I often think about even for us coaching homeowners is just getting to their why right? What you describe is to understand your clients why and make sure your own company brand why is aligned with your clients why? It's not just so much I want a two-bedroom edition. It is more of what does it feel when you're standing on the beach with your entire family, watching sunset together and holding hands to just have that moment that's so unique that you can describe the words, the feeling, that's the how and what comes after that. That's brilliant.

On your LinkedIn, you have that relevance is greater than difference which is sales together is less than empathy. I'll love to get your perspective on that.

Jeff Echols:  18:50

There's a lot of people in our world and especially in the marketing and branding space, business development space in this pursuit of differentiation, right? They'll talk about being different, differentiating our firm from the other firm and that's all great, right? But the fact of the matter is, number one is incredibly difficult to legitimately authentically differentiate yourself from another architecture firm, another construction firm and other whatever it is that you do. And the fact of the matter is, here's just an extreme example that I love to use because I will often help firms that get into the shortlist interview, the responded RFPs or RFQs and so I'll help with presentation design and coaching and things like that sometimes. And so, the extreme example is you made the shortlist right so now you're one of five let's just say. If your entire team walks into the interview room, dressed in a bright yellow tuxedo with tails and top hat, you will certainly be absolutely different than any other team that walks into that interview room that day unless you got a lot of weirdos. Here, you're going be the only team with the in the yellow tux and top hat. But the question is, so what? Does that matter? Yes, you will be memorable but no one is making a decision based on those yellow tuxedos. Maybe they will on the negative side but they are not going to make the decision because you are so different because your whole team wore this yellow tuxedo, right?

So, what really matters and what actually helps you differentiate yourself from others is how relevant you are to that selection committee. If we stick with that example, you walk in and you are so in tune with this potential client, with the selection committee, that everything you talk about, every question that you ask them. By the way, are you walking into the interview room asking questions or just talking about how good you are and talking about your qualifications? But if you are more relevant, your messaging, things you talk about, the questions you ask, those are more relevant than anybody else, all of a sudden, you have differentiated yourself because you feel like the right fit. That's the key to everything, feel like the right fit and the only way to get to that level of relevance is to have more empathy and more understanding for that client you know, whatever your context is than anybody else.

So, I believe that the truth going forward is that the people, the firm's that understand their clients better than anybody else, they win right? So, developing that empathy is of utmost importance. So, relevance is greater than difference but empathy trumps at all.

Grace Mase:  22:10

That's brilliant. And I think about our training and architecture program, we always get this assignment, you design it, you get in front of your critics, your classmates, you talk about your design, how you think about the process. I think it's very important to go through the exercise. But inevitably, there's a sense of ego developed over time. I'm curious you talk about ego versus empathy. What's your definition of ego and what's your definition of empathy?

Jeff Echols:  22:38

Yeah, that's a great question. So, when I talk about ego, I don't mean like egotistical or ego maniacal on that scale. But when we start a conversation from a point of ego, what I mean is, basically, we're talking about what we think matters. And not to throw architects or anybody else in professional services under the bus, it is completely understandable when anybody that's an expert in their field, anybody that's a professional, right? This is the very definition, right? We are the experts; we are the professionals. So of course, you know what's best right on paper, of course you understand codes or you understand, you know, whatever it is. But when we start from a point, start the conversation, literal conversation, messaging on your website, proposal, whatever form that comes in, when we start the conversation from a point of ego, what we think matters, what we know to be true etc. Neuroscience tells us that is the fastest way to turn the other person's brain off. They go oh, wait a minute. I didn't come here for a lecture, right? I didn't come here to hear you talk about all of your experience and how good you are and how many years you've been in business, etc. So we start from a point of ego, we're going to shut the other person's brain down. So think about that and again back to the yellow tuxedo scenario, you walk in and start talking about everything from a point of ego, you've got a selection committee, you've lost them in the first three minutes.

If you flip that around and you start from a point of empathy, meaning what matters most to them, what they feel, what they're struggling with, all of those things. If you start from a point of empathy, neuroscience tells us that opens up their brain, that limbic part of their brain goes oh, I want to know more. These people really understand me, these people really know what I'm struggling with, etc. I said a minute ago, anybody that hires a professional services firm, despite what they say, no matter what they say, what they're really looking for first and foremost is the professional that feels like the right fit. A lot of times I'll get the call when someone just lost a project that they just knew was going to be theirs. You know, back to that client that you've been working with for 15 years, I had this conversation now in COVID time is probably a little over a year ago. But a firm said, we want to bring you in for this pursuit when we make the shortlist. We know we're going to make the shortlist and wait a minute; how do you know you're going to make the shortlist? Well, we've been doing this work with this client for 15 years basically is how it went and I went “hey, timeout a second. You've been doing this work with this client for 15 years? Why is there an RFP?” Like, well, they wanted to bring in, you know this and that, the others. That client just told you that they don't want you. That client that you've been doing that work with for them, with them for 15 years just told you that they don't want you on this project or at least not without some other support, you know etc.

That’s the reality of these types of projects. And so what happens a lot is I get that call when someone lost that project that they just knew they were going to make the shortlist, they just knew they were going to get it. And the first thing that I want to do is find out if we can get a debrief with the decision makers, with the people that made the decision the selection committee and just ask them not why didn't you pick my client? What drove you to select the firm that you selected? What were the factors? What was behind this decision? No fault, no blame, we just need to understand as we go forward, right. And almost always, the first thing out of their mouth is our mouths, collective mouths, if we can get as many people in the room as we can. This other firm felt like the right fit and that is exactly the moment where my new clients’ head starts to explode, right? We've been working with this client on these projects for 15 years, we've done more of these types of projects than anybody else in this day. We're experts in the subject matter, all of those ego things and the selection committee just told you that they were looking for empathy things and that's where you lost.

That's the real importance, that's the real impact of this idea of ego versus empathy especially in that type of scenario, you got everything to lose and walking in making these assumptions, walking in starting the conversation from this point is the best and fastest way to lose.

Grace Mase:  27:53

Wow, that's profound. Now, you talked about what empathy feels like and what ego approach feels like. If you might share with us just like what you did for your exercise, companies, other brands outside of AE community that's running like an egocentric company versus an empathy centric company from their brand perspective.

Jeff Echols:  28:18

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of examples out there without naming any names. I mean, you can start with some software companies that are prevalent in the AEC industry. There was an open letter delivered to one of those software companies a few months ago that essentially said you keep jamming this stuff down our throat, you keep increasing the price, you don't add in any more features, you don't listen to our feedback on what we want the software to do and you know, you're roping us into the subscriptions that's the future of all of these models, right? So, you're very familiar with that. I think that's a really easy example. We've cornered the market, we have this, we know that we have the most powerful tools out there. In some sense, there's some truth to that. You look at some of these products and you go yeah, I mean, there are a few of them out there that have more features, more benefits, all those things that they'd like to sell on than anybody else and yet you go into and pick your favorite ABC centric Facebook group or a clubhouse room or whatever and everybody's railing on him, how much they hate him how much you know, they want to find an alternative, whatever.

And a lot of people mentioned cost in that conversation but the fact of the matter is, if that software is good as it is, if it was actually delivering what their customers wanted there wouldn't be any conversation about the cost, right? If everybody’s got oh my gosh, it’s like this software company understands my every single move and by the way they do that's the part that's hard to get your head wrapped around. They do understand your every move but they're just not delivering on it, right? They are not developing the empathy to go, you know what, if we made this operate like this instead of like that, we'd have a whole lot more happier customers. If we did this the way that they've been asking us to do this or if we did this in a way that solved that better, faster, more efficient, whatever, they would have a whole lot more raving fans than they do and right now, as far as I can tell, they're creating a lot of enemies. They got great products and they're on a slippery slope without mentioning any names.

Grace Mase:  30:53

I appreciate the example because oftentimes, people are so focused just as business or running as this is why I need to back to the ego, what I need to be able to operate my business versus how can I serve my client to help solve their problem so we can both benefit?

Jeff Echols:  31:13

Yeah, in a lot of times, we can look at it. And again, a lot of this is understandable. We're running businesses, we're trying to grow businesses, we're trying to compete, it's very hard to compete, right? We got this comment in this forum or what wherever it came from about this thing so why don't we add this thing and why don't we add this thing in? And we can get caught up in that if you're an architect or a contractor, oh well, what would happen if we add a closet here or, you know, however that conversation goes but we need to take a step back and go okay well, what does that feature actually accomplish? How does that make my customers lives better? If someone's asking for another closet, or whatever it is, okay, what are we trying to accomplish? You know, back to the why, right? Why do you want to do that? What is that actually accomplishing? What's the result that's going to come from that? It's got nothing to do with a closet, it really doesn't. It has to do with reducing clutter, getting rid of the chaos, making traffic flow better, whatever it is. So, if we can get away from focusing on the features and all those addons and really ask great questions. Why do you want that feature? What would having that feature accomplish for you? And then having that conversation, that's going to get us a lot closer to value and gives a lot closer to building a brand that people go oh, I love this software company because they take everything I say and they make my life and they make my business better. Not oh yeah, they reduce the number of clicks or they put this little doohickey in here and they raise the price by $200 this year.

Grace Mase:  33:09

This is something I truly love and appreciate. As I sit back, I'm looking at holistically how I want to create my company, what is the legacy? What's the brand? If I'm not here, how would this brand continue on and how's it going to continue to serve and that's what matters to me. So, I love everything you said and obviously, I can just sit here and talk to you all day and what other resources you provide by helping AEC communities to think about holistic approach to their brand, who they are and why they exist.

Jeff Echols:  33:41

There are a couple things that I have on my website right now that are really sort of easy one two-step approaches probably before we get into coaching or full-blown consulting or something like that. But one of them I call the brand plan and basically, it's a one-day charrette if you want to think about it in terms of architecture, where we get together and we walk through everything that you want to accomplish, you know, what are your goals? How do we assess those things? How do we look for opportunities? I love innovation and number one, I think the AEC world really needs to focus on true innovation which is one of the things that fascinates me about what you do because you're at that slicing through with innovation right now.

So looking at what your goals are, looking for ways that we can innovate and build a brand, start to build a brand around that. That's a pretty easy first step and then the other one that is sort of the one two punch or second step is what I call the brand builder where when it comes to time we've got the plan, figure out where we're going, now we need to really start developing the messaging maybe there's a website involved and those types of things that we wouldn't maybe more traditionally think of as in terms of branding per se, that's where the brand builder piece of it comes in. So those are out there and I'm a big fan of challenges and so I ran a challenge a few weeks ago. Now, as we record this, I run another one here and another couple of weeks as we record this and then beyond. Pretty simple challenges to get your mindset into maybe you have a new idea or maybe it's something that you're struggling with. This is also a kind of a sweet spot is, you know, an architect or anybody in the AEC world that goes you know what, we're struggling. A lot of people are really busy right now. Just an interesting time, interesting economic cycle in this wacky roller coaster that we're on right now. But there are a lot of people that are really busy surviving right now, a lot of people are frustrated. If you have employees, a lot of people are worried. How do I keep with what were our unemployment numbers a year ago, right? If we look at that right now unbelievable numbers, still a lot of unemployment. So, there's still a lot of people that are worried about keeping their people employed. And frankly, there's a lot of people that are competing for scraps that they don't even want anyway. And so, I'm going to run a challenge here in a few weeks. It's really going to help you focus on developing the mindset, understanding what you really do want and understanding those people that you really do want to work with and for and developing the messaging, the branding, so that you're attracting what you do want instead of competing for the scraps that you don't want anyway. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn or my website ( I am on all the socials as (Jeff_Rekkles). It is pretty easy to find me I think.  But if you're interested in things like that, look for the next challenge and then we'll spend five days going through stuff like that together.

Grace Mase:  37:12

This is awesome because I often think about just the architects, engineers and contractors. We have maybe our training, we just feel like we'll figure it out where they're smart people syndrome, right. And reality is we need help just like any athlete. Even top performing athletes, they have coach on the side watching every move, fine tune every movements to get the optimized results. And I think about what you do is exactly that even present challenges. I used to work at Beachbody the challenge is huge because when you start thinking about these incremental sprint's just getting to the results, once you see the result, you move on to next challenge and continue to level up. That's exciting and this way, you can see a very vast of improvement over a short period of time. I really appreciate what you're doing for the industry because we desperately need it of looking at how everyone is so focused on just going through the hamster wheel and doing same thing over and over again yet there are ways to just have minor tweaks to get to the much better results. That to me is exciting.

Jeff Echols:  38:22

Yeah, thank you for that. And you said something right there that especially architects design thinking is at your core. It was the basis of your education and there are a lot of architects and others trying to design new ways, new systems for their businesses and I can't blame them too much because that's what you were taught in school. That is probably at the core of what drives you. But the problem is, and you didn't get the business training like we talked about before. So, your first instinct when you have some business problem or you need a new system for this or whatever your first instinct is to design a system for that, right which is exactly the wrong thing to do. So, you could spend your time designing and “innovating a new business system” or you could walk across the quad to the College of Business, walk into the lobby or the lounge or whatever and say “okay, which one of your business majors has a system for this problem that I have?” They hand you a textbook and you go okay, let's go implement this and then spend your time innovating on something that's truly innovating your practice instead of some system that you have no business trying to redesign, trying to reinvent the wheel for your invoicing or your proposals or whatever it is.

So, I think that's a really important realization is that there are some things that we should apply design thinking to. There are some areas where we should be innovating but a new accounting system is probably not one of them or whatever it is that you're struggling with at the moment. So yeah, I mean, look for people that can help you level up and pay attention to the things you need to pay attention to and free you up to truly innovate, truly do the things that you're put on this earth to do.

Grace Mase:  40:42

That's brilliant. Oh, my goodness, I feel like you're stringing off fire hose. So much great insights. Thank you so much Jeff for taking your time and helping us to level up and gain all this incredible knowledge. And I really encourage everyone who's listening, reach out to Jeff, he really has so much to offer and you will see visible results of how you grow your business better. I've really enjoyed listening to you and really appreciate all of you here with us today and thank you for joining us on this episode of revivify podcast. We will see you next time.

Jeff Echols:  41:14

Thanks Grace. Thanks, everybody.