*Header image credit: Mona Ying Reeves, Re:modern
Full Podcast Transcript
Grace Mase 00:08
Hello, welcome to Revivify Podcast. Today we're very fortunate to have Mona Ying Reeves. She is the Principal and the Owner of Re:modern, and she has an enormous amount of experience and I'm just dying to hear her story. So welcome Mona!
Mona Ying Reeves 00:24
Hi, Grace, nice to be here.
Grace Mase 00:27
Well, we were introduced by a mutual friend Mignon O’Young. She is a dear friend, and I have tremendous respect for her and she could not stop talking about you. So I'm dying to learn about your history, your background, how you navigate your path, and how you ended up where you are today.
Mona Ying Reeves 00:41
Wow, I'm so glad we got paired together too. Because yes, the common friend thing is a strong connection. Great to meet you, Grace.
Grace Mase 00:50
Very nice to meet you. So you were trained as an architect? When did you start realizing architecture was the path you want to pursue?
Mona Ying Reeves 00:59
Oh, when did I realize you mean, before I even, so a little bit, I have my undergraduate degree in architecture, and I also have a master's degree in architecture. And in a way, my career is kind of boring, because I am still an architect still working as an architect. So I haven't deviated too far from that as what I would say, my core career. But I've kind of done a few little tangents here and there. As far as getting into architecture. I don't know. I mean, if I was to think I mean that this is many years ago, thinking way back in high school, I think it was just one of those things where, as a high school student, I liked art, I was creative, and I was good at math. So in the mind of a high school student, right? You're like, what can I do that combines all of those? And yeah, and that's kind of led me down this path. I still love creating things. And I don't mind the technical parts that go with creating actual physical things.
Grace Mase 02:02
This really just shows your dedication and commitment to the profession, and which is why you're so successful today. And I know your path to where you are today, definitely you own your company for over 16 years. So you have a tremendous amount of experience, you know both sides of owning a firm, as well as helping homeowners to achieve their dreams. But there's one piece I find quite interesting, and a lot of us don't know much about as we often watch these HGTV shows, and they all seem very fascinating. They seem, you know, incredible designs. And you're one of the people behind the scenes. So if you could share with us what was like behind the scene, and what was the expectation? How did you help them to keep achieving those dreams?
Mona Ying Reeves 02:44
Yeah, it's, it's the whole television remodeling makeover show. It's a really fascinating, I don't know, microcosm of the world. And I will kind of preface this by saying that it's not how real projects for anyone else, off of TV work, right? But it's so much of how those of us who watch TV experience renovation projects nowadays, right. And so it certainly kind of is a lens that homeowners come at when they're starting out with project work for their design professionals, because they've seen something on HGTV, and they might think, oh, like, Can we do this kitchen? We've seen them do it with free materials, and they did it in a week. Or can we do this bathroom, I've got a contractor ready to start next week? Can I have a design? And the reality is, you know, no, you can't have a design in one week. Or we, it's like, Sure, you can build things with free materials, but you're going to pay a whole lot more in labor to make that happen. Because ultimately, TV is really interesting, but it's storytelling. It's not really about building the space. It's about telling the story. And so I was fortunate pretty early on when I started re:modern, to have been contacted by some producers of a production company that did a lot of work in the Bay Area, California where I'm located. And the way some of the shows work from behind the scenes, they have a host that you know, you might see present a design and they bring in you know, the Build Team and they like to do all this magic on TV. And it seems like it happens really quickly. And the shows I worked on their format. This was the, I did a bunch for the crasher series, so it would be Room Crashers, House Crashers, they originally started with Yard Crashers. There's a whole family of these. I mean there's one for Kitchen Crashers and I also worked on a special that was their version of The Extreme Home Makeover called Ultimate Crash. Where we had multiple hosts from multiple of the Crasher shows, each taking over a different space of one house. So as you can imagine, four different production companies descending upon one house, one suburban house, over the course of three to four days, and completely transforming it. So I was involved with that. That was pretty amazing. But those shows are really, when they film those shows, they do the walkthrough with the host. And then they send the video to someone like me, who is a design consultant on the show. And then we do all the behind the scenes. So I did the design, I work with the producers, and we source the materials we got, you know, even the vendors in place and the team in place, so that the work could be done in three days. You know, and that's not how regular projects work. Because, yeah, we spend a lot more time on design. There's a lot more back and forth between the client, right? TV shows, there's pretty much no back and forth, you know, we just kind of run with it, right? And then we show up, and they get what they get, because there's a surprise reveal at the end.
Grace Mase 06:12
Right. All right. Well, for most of us who watch TV, and of course, we just enjoy watching the transformation. But of course, you know, there's the other half of me thinking now, realistically, you know, that's not possible. And even just three days is some enormous amount of work to cram into those three days.
Mona Ying Reeves 06:35
And it really is amazing because with television, and the amount of people involved to do that kind of a production, they're working 24 hours a day. And there's homework, you know, it's the scale and kind of like the Navy SEAL descends upon this house to make it happen.
Grace Mase 06:57
That's a good visualization. But now as you're with your own firm, your own projects, your own clients, and when they come to you, or at some point, they found out that you have some experience and refer to hey, what about that episode? Or what about that project? How do you help them navigate through the or just help them set expectations?
Mona Ying Reeves 07:16
It's interesting, because it's it, they're kind of related, but they're not in a way. I think for my personal practice, most homeowners who are remodeling or building onto their house have found me either through word of mouth or through my Houzz profile. My website has a fairly extensive selection of past projects at re-modern.com. And so when they find me that way, they've seen the design work I do running a design oriented architecture firm. And they have some idea of who they're working with before they even call me. Honestly, I've, you know, no one has ever watched one of these TV shows and then, you know, and then kind of pause the credits at the end in order to write down the name and then look up to see who designed it, right. Because for most of us, I mean, we watch the shows, and they're so entertaining to watch, and especially when you see you know, like the big reveal and like they're crying if for good or bad. They're crying. And all that stuff, right? It's great. It's great TV, but like you watch those shows, and you're just like, oh, wow, the host, the host did that. Right? Right. So Fixer Upper, you're kind of like, yeah, like Joanna and Chip did that, or, you know, any of those shows, you never really think that it's actually a whole crew of people back there. And they are, you know, the host job was to host the show, but they weren't the ones who actually created the vision of that project. So it's a different thing. But when a homeowner has watched a lot of television, HGTV and the DIY network type shows, right? And then they call there is a lot of expectation setting. Because a real life project takes longer. It's the resources and expenses come from a different pot than you would, you know, when you see on a television show, where you're building with free things off the street, or pallets or you know, lots of DIY stuff, or donations from manufacturers. Exactly. There's a lot of kind of vendor donations involved there. And obviously, in real life, we're building for something that's going to last for many, many years. It's most likely somebody’s long term home, and not a TV show where we, you know, they may cut corners by gluing something instead of attaching it. Everyone certainly does the best they can but, you know, there's a deadline and they're filming, there will be corners cut.
Grace Mase 10:03
Yeah, that makes sense. But now, it's great to get the detail behind the scenes, how it works. For us watching TV, in our mind, we're like creating our own story of what could happen, but now getting in front of the actual source of what really happened. So yeah, I know with Re:modern, your work is just stunning. And to my understanding, you also incorporate sustainable green design as part of your philosophy working through. So if you might share with me how you go through that process? How do you engage with homeowners to begin to think about, obviously, in most cases, homeowners are still not as well versed on the topic of sustainable green architecture. It is still not well understood by the consumers, but I'm sure some are much more averse to that. So just like curiosity, how you engage people, and how do you help them to understand better?
Mona Ying Reeves 10:58
Yeah, it's, I think that's a really great question, because, as someone who's had that, as a core interest of mine, since I started my career, you know, I don't see sustainability or green building as being separate from delivering good design. The rest of the world, unfortunately, like, may see that as something different, like, oh, you have to pay extra for it, or you're making a choice between either green design or regular design, or see that kind of as a niche on the side, I've kind of built the business on the premise that in the beginning, I would describe green design or sustainable modern design as something very specific, because no one was really talking about it. I do feel like we've reached critical mass where most people have some understanding of it, they may not know how to accomplish it. But they have some understanding of it. And that, to me, is good news, because it means that I can talk less about it, because it's kind of just the way that I think, a good project should be done anyways. Right? And if someone's not doing that, to me, it's just, it's a consideration that should have already happened. So
Grace Mase 12:18
I think you brought a good point if they haven't understood your appreciation or have desire and for you with that, that's your core DNA view, what you deliver it as an experience and design. What interesting thing behind it, people understand versus Alright, I want to do this, how do I do this? And how do you even start having a conversation or even down to position the home to certain directions to maximize the natural resources? Versus what material to choose to really deliver the ultimate result?
Mona Ying Reeves 12:54
Yeah, I think that comment touches upon one of the things I've noticed, which is, when we talk about green design, a lot of times when somebody is not familiar with it, or they're envisioning what green design is, they may be picturing something that has a certain aesthetic. So thinking of green design as looking or being made out of natural materials, or looking like it mimics or came from nature. Lots of wood, lots of natural palates, kind of, you know, like greens and browns and something a little bit crunchy or granola. But, you know, that's how a lot of people pictured green design, right? But both what I know as a professional doing this for a long time, and what I really push for my end, because my business, Re:modern really does modern design that comes more from a modern sensibility about creating spaces. Green building, doesn't at all have to be tied to aesthetic, because you can have something that looks or appears very, you know, very green, or in some people's minds, because it's you know, your natural materials, and, you know, remind you of being out of the woods or something like it can be completely built with toxic materials all around you, right. And I think that's where homeowners may not realize they're falling into that trap. Because if you look at it at the surface and say, hey, I would love to do something green. I want to do bamboo flooring in my house. Well, then they may end up shopping and they say well, hey, this bamboo like, this is great. I could buy this really inexpensive bamboo flooring and now I build green. But inexpensive bamboo flooring may be coated with many layers of highly toxic, you know, chemicals and coatings, you know produced in a way that is not sustainable for the environment with bad transportation, and then life is really a throwaway product, right. And ultimately, that is not good for the earth. And if the decision was made from the aesthetics only, you know, they're not really achieving the goal that they wanted to. So those are the conversations I tend to have in-depth with my clients, when we make individual decisions about their house. And it's not going to be necessarily just on the green stuff, it's going to be on decisions about anything, basically, like considering the trade-offs and what their values are, like, or trying to go for.
Grace Mase 15:39
Right, that's a good point, because I know a lot of times, homeowners, they set their budget, and they think that's all it will cost. And they're trying to manage their budget, no matter how it could be a couple million dollar project to a quarter-million dollars in their mind, they're still certain budget, they want to make sure they manage that effectively. And there's always a trade-off discussion, just like you said, there could be a bamboo flooring. There's a whole spectrum, just like a car, you could have, you know, Pinto to the Rolls Royce of the world, but effectively they're both cars, they're getting to the point from point A to point B, but their experiences are different, vastly different. And in this case would be how it was made, the bamboo materials or the flooring are vastly different as well. And so how do you navigate through those discussions of trade-off for, for them to understand the benefit pros and cons and long term for better ROI per se, you know, for them to understand, like why this is a better investment?
Mona Ying Reeves 16:40
Well, for most projects, I think that conversation, if the homeowner is interested in it tends to be a lot deeper of a conversation than the average homeowner expects there to be. Because so much of building is people understand space through what they see. But as you get involved with the design process, you realize it's as much about how it performs and functions and support your values or where you know, the things you want to do. And I do feel like we're recording this right now in a pandemic while everyone's home. So that might be more at the forefront right now as people realize that spaces actually could or can, or they might wish that it could do more things than they can. Because it's not about this, what it looks like, it goes beyond that into how it performs. So the green building is definitely one of those things that you know, you can get really far deep into because, you know, there's even different value systems within green. Are you doing it for the environment? Or to preserve resources? Or are you doing it for the safety of your own family and personal health? You know, there's different degrees of that and depending on what you value that's going to inform what's the right decision for you?
Grace Mase 18:03
That's a good point. And do you have those kinds of discussions from the beginning your first meeting or first two meetings with the clients? Or is it something more organic coming through and something for the homeowner to think about as they go through the journey?
Mona Ying Reeves 18:16
For me it's gonna be more organic and later on but that's also because I do custom design so it's a lot more a personalized service right? So that's going to be yeah, something that is very much about crafting the exact conversation with each client. But some people may need that conversation others may not.
Grace Mase 18:42
Right tailored to who your client is what stage mental model is at.
Mona Ying Reeves 18:48
Also projects are so different from what we're trying to achieve with the project so if we're building a forever home that's also very different than if you're building more like a vacation home or one that's going to be for rental.
Grace Mase 19:03
That's true right the material needs are quite different. People are just looking to maximize value quickly now versus longevity for the entire family and their health and well being as you see how is changing as you mentioned is evolving where the knowledge of homeowners becomes more keen or desired going that direction. what point do you see manufacturers started doing more to push through these kind of delivering the quality of work quality to focus on sustainable options and bring product and so forth because we still have the manufacturers still do the mass production and just like anything it will take some time and I think you mentioned as we're now at the critical points people have desired the demands their supply is there but it's not the mass yet.
Mona Ying Reeves 19:53
Yeah, it's not the mass yet and I would love to see it go a lot quicker towards the mass or towards becoming the norm. But the reality is, the building industry is a really slow moving industry. Yes. So it's not like the technology changes that quickly, certain aspects of building may change quickly. But you look at how the house is framed, it was framed the same way 150 years ago, as it largely is now. So, so a lot of the building suppliers are not going to be changing how they operate, the building suppliers who have been around for a long time are not going to be changing how they operate, unless the market demands it to change. So there's going to come, it's going to come from, I don't think it's going to come from within the manufacturer, it's going to come from homeowners and the public asking for it. And then we have to kind of clear the hurdle of initially, you know, paying and supporting those businesses are doing that until they can scale.
Grace Mase 20:59
Right? And also have professionals like you to advocate for such a change, too.
Mona Ying Reeves 21:04
Yeah, exactly. But on my end, you know, for custom projects, if we're doing one project at a time, is that enough of a voice for the manufacturers to change? They've got to see it enmasse. Yes. Right. Exactly.
Grace Mase 21:19
I'm sure they're, they're young design professionals are looking up to you, someone like you to say, Yeah, I would love to be able to do something like her and transmitter and really pushing through and helping them helping really set the tone of what we can be, you know, 10 2030 years from now, what kind of advice would you give them?
Mona Ying Reeves 21:39
This has come up actually recently with some colleagues too, because we were talking about a lot of new graduates coming out into the marketplace looking for jobs. And as we're recording this, they're looking for jobs in the pandemic when no one's actually working in the office, right. So I want to kind of twist that question over and say what, like, what design jobs in a way are going to still be in demand moving forward. And I think those jobs are going to be the ones that actually look at, try to bridge the gap between what people want in the market, and help them get to something that they can't get to easily. So it's going to be the difference between the mass market and what people want. And, you know, I spoke a little bit about how the mass market, especially in the building, the building industry is a slow moving market. So the mass market is lagging in terms of what they're delivering, right, you know, to what the average homeowner, I would say wants. I'll give you a quick example, if you'll go with me, yes. One of the pet peeves that always has is when we, you know, do a house and we're ordering just even, you know, if we get to specify the details, such as electrical switch plates, or outlet covers, right? I don't know, if you notice, like, you, you look at the color selections, and it's like, okay, it's like it's shiny, cheap, white plastic, or this shiny, cheap looking black plastic. Or like the shiny cheap looking, you know, yellowing beige. And it just drives frankly, drives me crazy. It's like, why is this so hard to find? a matte finish? White? switchplate? Right. And, but it is, it's just one of those things, right? And every single house has it. But like every single house needs outlets, right? But in order to get those map plates, you probably have you know, on my projects, you have an architect, like be pushing for it. Now having a conversation with the homeowner saying, I think this is really something you would enjoy. It's going to cost you more. Are you willing to do that? Now let's go back to the electrician, electricians when you say that’s not what I normally do, it's going to cost you more money. And there's this whole kind of series of coordination, right that's involved in order to make something that would be very simple. would seem like it should be simple process.
Grace Mase 24:16
You're absolutely right. Consider it, there's a 3D printer now. And it's there's no reason why we can't say well for the color matching, make sure you bring the right material and produce exactly the same pattern. And just the results are different colors. And based on the volume will click the way and you produce that at the much smaller scale, but still shouldn't be that much more. Right. It's not the same as you have to make a huge manufacturer. This is all day in day out the mass machines are producing them but I understand it's costing a little bit more but just in general experience is much more pleasant. When you look at the ball with the light switch or electric plates it is like this is nice. It's essentially not to be your face, it's a blind play on a nice, beautiful color wall.
Mona Ying Reeves 25:04
Exactly. So if it's things like that, I hope we will eventually get there. But I mean, for now, you know, to make that jump from the shiny, ugly white plate to the matte finish plate, right? I mean, that's like a six fold difference or something. It's not insignificant across the scope of a house.
Grace Mase 25:21
Well, and also that ties into currently, as you mentioned, we're in a pandemic and everyone's locked in their house. And as a professional you have your own practice, you still need to deliver your service to your clients. And as they're managing through this, how have you been thriving through this process? or how did you navigate through this process from the day the governor declared war shelter in until now I am connecting with your clients through Zoom, and so forth, and working with your contractors on the site?
Mona Ying Reeves 25:55
We're definitely in unusual times, and there's just on everybody's part, I think we communicate how things will take longer. And we're doing coordination, you know, video chats at unconventional times, you know, for families, because I have a family too. And most of my clients have families. So we've got kids running around during the day. Like later on tonight, I have a call at 9:30 pm. So we're doing like, really unconventional hours, but that's kind of, you know, how we're going to get through the short term. In terms of kind of, yeah, moving forward. I feel like I'm kind of fortunate, because there was a side project I started called my House Tribe, and you could actually visit the website called www.myhousetribe.com. It's an online support community for homeowners going through the renovation process. So my hope for this group is really, you know, so much of the overwhelm, that you might experience on a project or the frustration can be avoided with the right expectations, which I love what BEYREP is doing because you're helping a lot with that, right? But it's basically, this is where I think, you know, by house tribe, and they really have a lot in common in trying to help homeowners right now. If you've got a support group, so for me, like, where my house tribe is coming from is we're kind of setting that up to be the so called support group. We're going through this major lifestyle event, like if you were a new parent, you might be joining a parent's group or a mother's club. Or if you kind of just graduated from college, you probably got some career counseling, or you might get some advice to help find your first job. But so many people, you know, are heading into home improvement or renovations on the biggest asset of their life spending a whole lot of money, and mistakes are super costly, right? It's not, they're doing really with no knowledgeable support group. I mean, there are well intentioned friends. But, you know, friends, don’t always know how to build.
Grace Mase 28:21
And they're not trained. And also, no matter, this is a huge financial investment. It is an enormous emotional investment. This is where people come to your house. And they're doing something effectively just like heart surgery into your house, destroying a bunch of stuff, demoing out the house, and pieces of memory will be taken away or disassembled in some ways. And then there you are looking at your house, all of a sudden, there's a panic moment of what if it didn't work out? What if the contractor took off with my money and never finished? There's all these fears. And we all of us hear, there's dramas that happened to other people in these war stories. And I love what you're doing. I think that's tremendous help for our profession, just managing expectations helps homeowners to navigate through those even just counseling, or just have another friend who's praying, just helping them to go through that and answer questions. What do I need to do? And same thing with our clients often, where they need some help from the homeowner clients like, I just need I just got this question. How do I go through this?
Mona Ying Reeves 29:21
There are a lot of times, yeah, no, I completely hear that. Because a lot of times, they might just have one question, right? You might just have one question. You're like, who do I ask? But maybe that's all you need. So you don't need to like, you don't need to hire an architect for one question. But yeah, who do you ask if you don't have someone to ask you my enemy, like, and I've seen this happen before. I've sat in the movie theater, where I was talking with a friend about her project. And then the guy next to her in the movie theater starts giving her advice. And so it's kind of like if you have this little question, Who do you ask? because there are going to be a lot of well-intentioned people who want to help you out and give you their opinion, but building decisions are so expensive, and the stakes are so costly. It's just so important to have a good group of yeah, support, your support in place. Yeah, the support knows where you're going to go for your answer, right.
Grace Mase 30:28
Objective, too. I think that's the key because we have clients where they came to us say, well, one of my neighbors is a contractor, they passed by our house, they questioned about this, what should I do? And you're like, well, let's walk back a little for a couple steps. What's their motive? Apparently, their motive is taking the job, and they're not happy, you didn't ask them or whatnot. And so they're gonna find a way to kind of criticize the scope or the proper work in progress. In reality, this is work in progress, or many things are not done. And raising those unnecessary alerts really is doing more harm than good. And so, those are things that I just love the concept of My House Tribe, I'm glad you brought it up, I was going to ask you about that. Because that's a huge asset to homeowners who want that emotional, just hand holding, and just that one minute hand holding or just a, it's okay, you got this!
Mona Ying Reeves 31:20
Kind of that quick check in or, like, you know, is this right? Or it's like, hey, I just got this bid. Like, is that sound right? You know, well, something really super quick.
Grace Mase 31:33
I'm so glad we got connected, because we are definitely moving in the same direction, same mission, really helping homeowners to have the positive experience and having that peace of mind to navigate through this and have the confidence that with the knowledge they gain, they know what to do making the right decisions. At the same time helping the professional to say, let's raise the bar, and let's make a difference and really make this home improvement experience overall, for everyone to be a positive one.
Mona Ying Reeves 32:00
Yeah, I was really excited when I first found out about BEYREP too because of the mission you guys have. I mean, within kind of where I see the building industry and the, you know, home improvement industry headed, at least in the United States. If you look at how a family might improve their home, you know, to like one or two generations ago, most average families of modest means, may have hired an architect or a professional, and kind of came up with the plans, and then you go get the bids. And then it's kind of in a way, it sounds a lot more straightforward, right? You come with a plan first, design first, you get the bids, find out how much it costs, you might talk to three people and then decide and then you act on it. You choose who you want, and you act on it. Nowadays, I think we're lucky in a way that we have so many options available to us. But within so many options, and also so much information thrown against us from HGTV as we talked about before, from opinions from like your neighbor or the guy next to you in the movie theater. And like all this stuff, right? It's just there's just so much more information to sort through and with how we expect life to be now. You know, everyone wants it now. Yes. So we're not kind of at this pace where we expect to plan things out and take a long time before we act on it. We decided we're going to remodel now, we want to hire someone now, and we want to build next week. And we don't want to hear so we don't want to hear a professional tell us that that's not a good idea.
Grace Mase 33:50
So I got this plan from Pinterest.
Mona Ying Reeves 33:55
I love this light from Pinterest that goes over the bathtub. There's a, you know, and if actually asked that question a great you know, for my clients, we can have a conversation about building codes and how it's not permitted at least within California where we are but that Pinterest fixture probably came from another part of the world. Yeah. But you know, without kind of the quick someone to ask really. It's really very easy to become disappointed.
Grace Mase 34:32
Yes, and get disappointed at the end and just refuse to move on just because once they have that negative experience, it's hard for them to get back up and say. You get stuck and feel embarrassed. That's the other thing I think is emotionally embarrassing because you realize you made a mistake, and you probably pay some money for that. Pinterest plant. You know, if you have a few $1,000 and you realize you just lost that few $1,000 and that is such an awful experience as a starter as a first step. And if we can help eliminate those kinds of pitfalls and mistakes, and just encourage people to say, Hey, we got this, this is right, this is wrong. And it just helped them to just kind of, you know, almost why think about guardrail almost as they're going through or when my kids were young, the bowling alley always had the guardrail, just so you know how to get the ball down the aisle. And I think exactly what you do is helping people to say, or the path is yes, can be complicated. But here, let us help you to simplify this and make sure we have the guardrail so you don't fall.
Mona Ying Reeves 35:31
Exactly. And on top of that is kind of, you know, if it's somebody kind of at the scale of testability, it would be, are we asking the right question is, is this path even safe? Is it path is the path even oriented to get to solve the problems you need to be solved, right? Without jumping to a solution that may not even solve your problems,
Grace Mase 35:59
Like I said, I'll be just so looking forward to talking to you. You are just a wealth of information, and you have so much to offer. And homeowners are so lucky to have someone like you, what you do your architecture, practice, as well as having this My House Tribe, I think combination two will make a big difference in our industry. So I love to talk to you more about it. I know people dying to contact you, what would be the best way to contact you?
Mona Ying Reeves 36:25
Best way honestly, the best way right now I have contacts, there's ways to contact me on either my website, and that's going to be myhousetribe.com. And that's going to be the support group for homeowners going through the remodeling journey. We've got kind of virtual happy hours right now during the pandemic. So for some chatting, we got a Facebook group. Yeah. So that's kind of more for the emotional support. And for the custom design, kind of more the personalized high-end design for the Bay Area. That's going to be re-modern.com
Grace Mase 37:05
Fantastic. Well, thank you, Mona. It's been such a pleasure and honor to speak with you and we'll follow up another session, but for the time being, thank you and appreciate all the help and all the effort you are doing to help elevate this industry.
Mona Ying Reeves 37:19
Thank you Grace for having me. It's been so fun to talk to you today.
Grace Mase 37:23
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Revivify Podcast, and we'll see you next time.