Lindsay Prichard-Fox, Owner at TiverBuilt LLC talks to us about her groundbreaking business that brings the latest in 3D modeling software into the field of residential construction. Lindsay has found that using Building Information Modeling (BIM) saves homeowners thousands of dollars by planning out their build or renovation to satisfaction into a 3D photorealistic rendering of what the completed project plan will look like.

*Header image credit: Lindsay Prichard-Fox, Tiverbuilt LLC

Full Podcast Transcript

Grace Mase:  0:07

Hello and welcome to the Revivify Podcast. I'm your host, Grace Mase. Thanks for listening to this episode of revivify podcast where we're speaking with Lindsey Fox, founder and CEO of Tiver Built LLC, a digital design and construction company with a focus on building laser scanning, and building information systems to homeowners and residential builders. I'm really excited to discuss her experience in 3Dmodeling, and BIM helping business owners and homeowners feel confidently. Welcome, Lindsay.

Lindsay Fox: 0:42

Thank you for having me, Grace.

Grace Mase:  0:43

For the amount of time I've known you, I'm so impressed with what you do. So but I'd love for you to share with our audience, how did you get started?

Lindsay Fox: 0:51

I did grow up within the building industry to some degree, my grandfather and grandmother ran a historic preservation and restoration company. So it was kind of getting to see that as a child that allowed me I think, to feel pretty comfortable in the construction industry. And other than that, I just ran through a bunch of projects for myself and like the DIY space. I went through a huge renovation edition project on my house back in 2015-16 and jumped right into an interior design program. I mean, I can go through this real fast. Interior design program found Revit or REVIT, which is the software we use for our building information modeling. And I loved it so much that I named my company after it. So Tivor Built his Revit sold in reverse, and saw that it was just a great way to empower build professionals, homeowners. It just kind of closed the loop on the challenges that many in the construction industry faced. And since I had seen them since I was a kid, it was kind of like, “Oh, let's do this. This is great.” And went out looking for a job, I didn't necessarily want to start my own company. And I called 30 firms locally. And I said I want to use building information modeling, and I want to use it in the residential space. And I pretty much got 30 straight out "No's". And it was enlightening. I was glad to have heard it. And then I kind of had a gut check and said, are they right, or is this worth the effort? And I decided it was worth the effort and Tiver Built was born. So really, I'm a consumer of the design process and construction products and enthusiasts for the creative space that is construction. And I just really like being in the trenches, being a laser scan operator, creating our digital models, managing our cloud point data and really collaborating with our clients and builders to create really incredible homes.

Grace Mase:  2:53

This is music to my ears. Obviously, I love everything you do. And I love this story about Tiver Built being the reverse of Rivet.

Lindsay Fox: 3:01

There you go.

Grace Mase:  3:02

I think this is one thing that maybe it's a moment for us to talk about you. Clearly this path is pretty impressive journey that you were so persistent and getting 30 "No's" most of us will be like, "Alright, I'll move on to something else." But you were very focused on getting this done. And I love just conviction and passion in getting this out. And also helping home on both sides, homeowner and pro of it. As we know, we discussed this many times where there's a massive gap between what a homeowner understands, the vision that's created, to what's being actually built. And a lot of time in between there's tons of change orders. And I think this is the ultimate way to resolve this gap. But if you might just break them down, like how does this benefit homeowners? How benefits the pros?

Lindsay Fox:  3:50

I would say one analogy that I had heard from a builder recently was, you know, what do you say to a client that asks, "How much are you a square foot?" Right? So builders often get that question and I actually had a blog post that we put on my website for this particular point. And this builder had this great response like, "Well, how much is a bag of groceries?" Sort of like, we need to know what's going into that bag of groceries in order to know the price. So it is difficult to create a square footage price unless we know what the homeowner is looking to put into the bag of groceries. So when we create really great visuals in our building information software, it's not just a pretty picture, like it's an incredible picture, but it's also showing a client what it is that they can have, what the builder has priced and it creates cohesion between a design professional and a builder and then therefore their clients are satisfied though. Yep, that's it. Check the box. Moving on.

Grace Mase:  4:51

You want to be on the same page ultimately.

Lindsay Fox:  4:53

Right, it sets really high quality expectations. Like you know what you're going to get out of it, your builder, you can be grateful to your design professional that they've successfully executed your design intent. And they're no longer just showing you tiny samples and telling you to imagine it. It's right there. It's the photorealistic rendering from the same file that's creating your construction documents. So there's consistency. So you know that your picture is going to match the documents that the builder has in the field.

Grace Mase:  5:24

And at any point, as we all know, the planning phase is so critical if you can plan well, and there'll be less change orders, lists, and decisions need to be made further down the project where the budget may be inflated down the path.  

Lindsay Fox:  5:37

I think one of the questions I've been asked is, what does my favorite project you know?, you and I talked about that. And my favorite project was actually my first project, because I had just come off of the journey of 30 "no's" and tried to search for answers and understand why I was getting 30 "no's" from design professionals that have been in the industry so long. And there were lots of misgivings in regards to whether or not the builder would be happy, if the homeowner was more empowered in the design process and the decision making process. We got through our first build, it was a renovation addition. So it was pretty significant. And we got through it with no change orders, on budget, on time. The builder was like, "Can we have it, can we work together again?" you know, that's our first project, and that there were challenges. We've definitely had issues that were like, "Oh, wait, who wait, whose toes who's doing this?" You know, there were some of those questions, because we were so new, but our homeowner loves the space that she gets to work in every day. She's a chef by trade, and she wanted to move into having a small business out of her home. And so we knew that the design that we needed to create for her needed to foster that skill and that little business that she wanted to have there. So she got to do a virtual tour of her space. And she tested out whether or not the island was big enough in our virtual reality goggles. And it was just like the best thing to see. Because she was like, "Yep, we're done. That's it. Great job. Moving on."

Grace Mase:  7:08

Like you said, all the decisions are made up front and to figure out if the island is big enough for her.

Lindsay Fox: 7:14

Yeah, there are a few things. They didn't end up manifesting as change orders because they got built in as options. So there was a couple like design aesthetic stuff that she liked. She wanted an archway here or there. You know, did she want the beam here? How did she want the opening to be. Those kinds of things were built in as options. So we were able to create flexibility in the contract documents that didn't end up manifesting in a change order is just like I'm taking this option, as opposed to that option, which you've already priced and the builders like yes, thank you moving on.

Grace Mase:  7:44

That's awesome. Let me ask you this. I clearly that first project was out of the park, I mean, that's brilliant. It's hard to top that one. So what gets you excited in the morning to jump off the bed?

Lindsay Fox:  7:57

I do love what I'm doing. And I look to add value in whatever it is that we do. And I know that I'm having a positive impact on the lives of others. And that's kind of like where I am in the world. Like, there is a lot of pain. And I look at pain as an indicator that there is an opportunity to have a positive impact. Each day that I wake up and I know that I'm having a positive impact on someone's life and alleviating some pain points. I'm charged, like yeah, let's do some more of that. Right. Construction, there's a lot of places we can ease the pain.

Grace Mase:  8:41

I hear you! Now also the counterpart, what keeps you up at night?

Lindsay Fox:  8:46

You know, when I was a kid, I thought that grown ups fixed problems. And I'm a grown up girl, and I'm seeing problems that existed when I was a kid. So that means that it's my turn, and I hope I can do enough. And sometimes I go to bed and I'm like, alright, that's a big problem. You know, like, what can I do to add value? What can I do to reduce pain? And I want my kids to see that I'm doing a fair level of effort, you know, when they get to that age, hopefully the problems that we're seeing now aren't problems that they're facing. Hopefully they can tackle some other ones because we all know that there's going to be some.

Grace Mase:  9:24

I love it. You're such a conscious role model for your kids. And I think that's also what we get excited about, what can we do to add value? What can we do to contribute? So someone can have that positive experience down the road, it should not be a negative experience that we all hear about over and over again, these nightmares, but in reality having your home renovating or building your home was such an exciting journey. But yet, there're so many obstacles that inherently exist for centuries and now with technology we have an opportunity to make a difference and you talk about BIM the Building Information Management, there's clearly tons of it. So I'll look for you to just give our audience a little quick overview, what has BIM?

Lindsay Fox:  10:08

What is BIM? So this is super fun, because when you're in construction, there's lots of acronyms, right. So BIM is Building Information Modeling, or it's Building Information Management, we create a digital replica of a structure in a software, like Revit. But there are other softwares on the market. And the point of that digital model, which is the other server that we refer to, is to house the information required to create that structure. So basically, we're creating a test fit for a construction project in a digital platform. So let's create as realistic a digital replica as possible. And there's plenty of ways of doing it, there's different standards that you can apply to it. But at the end of the day, it's about creating a platform for the entire project team to infuse their voice, infuse their vision, you know, even an HVAC contractor would want to have input on the design that where their systems go is important. And you don't want an HVAC system that runs between two bedrooms, and you don't want to hear what's going on in the other bedroom. Right? So those are the things that you can establish in a digital environment. And if you're going to say, "Wait, wait, I see that HVAC register, right, there. Nope, let's not put it there, I'm going to hear my kids, they're gonna hear me, let's not do that." Right. But it does kind of speak to creating more sustainable homes and allows for an empathetic design. So if you have an end user, so in this case, residential homeowner, getting a chance to do a virtual walkthrough, you know, either it's in my office with VR goggles, or it's, you know, on a zoom meeting. And they're just cruising them through, they're getting an experience inside that structure. And they're, you know, out there bumping in nudging walls, but they're doing it in a digital platform, rather than in physical field construction, when they're actually moving studs. So we're moving towards reducing waste, and increasing efficiencies.

Grace Mase:  12:21

And also, that's just the bottom line, it's going to be costly to do any changes on site. It's much cheaper, just change a line, delete the line, or modify the line, whatever it may take to modify division or to accommodate the vision.

Lindsay Fox: 12:36

And there are actual analogies that are out there that's like, it's 100 bucks. If you do it in the conceptual design phase, if maybe, like, maybe 1000 bucks, if you have to change a construction document phase, but field construction you're like thousands of dollars. So if we can kind of move up those decision making into the digital environment, we're instantaneously either neutralizing our fees or maximizing the project dollars, soft cost dollars, and it's really powerful. And so it definitely drives me to know that we're having a broad and lasting impact on the construction industry. And therefore, globally, you know, we want this, we want this technology to be adopted globally. And it needs to be kind of a default delivery system, like, we are the only industry, when you have a three dimensional product that's being designed, typically in two dimensional software. And we do need to move away from that, like, if you have 3D ideas, let's make sure you are doing 3D planning. We gotta make it cost effective. That was the biggest no that I had gotten is that BIM was too expensive, and BIM building information modeling, the modeling part can be expensive because of training. You know, trying to onboard a new skill for a design firm is really, it really is expensive. It's a very competitive industry. So in building this, this company, it was saying, well, here's like an on demand technology focused company. Whether you're an owner or a design firm, and you're like, I want my clients to have access to this technology, and in these processes. It's great. I'm like, alright, I can play with anybody, let's go.

Grace Mase:  14:24

Well, ultimately, as you're bridging the gap to really create that construction language, we're breaking that barrier for them to visually see that the language no longer needed this special jargon that we often throw around. We internally, we understand, we've been trained, but in the consumer world, that does not mean they understand completely. It's a completely different language. And how do you make it easy for them to understand this with a visual format. For them to see and recognize, "Oh, here's the material. I thought this would work but now, seeing it, it doesn't feel right." And they just like you mentioned, making that change at the planning phase or 100  hundred dollars versus actually on the job site and making those changes that's thousands of dollars. And oftentimes people don't think about the value that a professional like you can bring in saving them thousands of dollars.

Lindsay Fox:  15:13

And it really is difficult sometimes to quantify the savings that we are providing with our involvement. I can say that the digital construction space, there's been a lot of research in large scale construction projects, they are contributing digital construction practices with 22% cost savings/increased efficiencies in the construction industry. So you take a $10 trillion industry, and you're saying, here's a new approach, and it's got a 22% benefit. And I look at that as like a relatively new member of the construction industry. When I start talking to clients about laser scanning, it's not something that's instantaneously garnering excitement. And the vernacular around it is like cloud point data and like skim data, and I'm like, okay, but why is that cool? Like, well, typically, when you're doing a renovation or addition, the existing structure does need to be documented, right? Current workflows means that I've got a graph paper and a tape measure. And I'm, you know, creating basically a quick floor plan and I'm dropping my tape, and I'm, you know, 16 feet wide, and writing that down. If I'm really lucky, I have like a lasers, measurement shooter thing, one point of measurement, and I'm shooting that across the room. That's great, we can do that. But what if I had a scanner that was set up in the middle of the room and sent out a laser beam that would put out 360,000 times and I knew that each time that measurement came in, it was accurate within an eighth of an inch. And what if I did that throughout the entire house, then took that data, each of those measurement points and created a template. And with that template, I can trace the existing structure in our software, and we have one of the most accurate as-built, documented buildings that you can have. Now, what do you do with that, as an owner, it's really great to have your home documented. You can do laser scanning, there's a bunch of stuff that you can do with it that you can use it for insurance claims. You know, if you want to document your house and say if there was ever a fire, this is what the house looked like we had it scanned. If you wanted to make modifications, and you didn't want to do all the modifications at once. Well, do you want to pay for design professionals to come out another time to document that structure? No, you want to own that file, you want to own your digital replica. And you want to be able to provide that to pretty much anybody who needs the holistic approach to documenting your structure where the values are in documenting your structure, and how to kind of share it and create a more open platform. Because building information modeling on its own gleans the most value when it is transferable to other professionals that you need to work with as a homeowner. So owning that data, or at least having agreements with your design professionals that provide you access to a digital model that you had created, that definitely adds value downstream, you can do tons with it, it's very important,

Grace Mase:  18:25

Right. And just like simply saying, having someone drop a tape measure with a graph paper and document for let's say, a few hours, a couple hours, that time could be saved. Just merely having this laser scanning to create the data points where you can build up the 3D models very quickly and accurately as well.

Lindsay Fox:  18:42

I definitely see laser scan to building information modeling, not only laser scan to BIM is kind of like the breakthrough. Like if you, we really want building information modeling to take off, which is what I do need to have in the construction industry. Laser scanning is an extremely important component to that because it's not all new construction folks, like we need to reduce waste by making sure that we have really great efficient methods for preserving and upgrading our existing buildings.

Grace Mase:  19:12

I love this. And so the other piece I love is you're a woman in this field, which not many of us are in this field, a very small percentage and you're definitely paving the way for many of the women who're looking into this path and how do you and I know your team actually is heavily…  

Lindsay Fox:  19:30

I got no dudes. I got no dudes in my group. I tried. The capabilities I needed from some of the men that I was collaborating with early in the concept of my company, were had field construction experience. And so it was good. And then as soon as spring hits, they're like looking out the window with sad puppy eyes. They're like, "I gotta get in the field." Like, okay, go get in the field. I'm gonna build digitally so that you can build more efficiently in the field.

Grace Mase: 20:01

Right. Well, the thing is to me, I know, as we understand there's a significant labor shortage, any state, you go to residential construction is just desperate. And with COVID heating, obviously, there's a lot more desire for home improvements, you know, rather it be modeling, renovation or building new homes. And so even more so there's a need to make sure we ramp up the labor and women as a demographic, it's a great way to bring into construction. And creating this using digital or using technology to really leverage the workforce more effectively, and finding ways to reduce waste, as you mentioned, and become more productive. And also just keep the communication flow much more easily. Make sure that everyone's on the same page. And I think you are sitting at this position and kind of bridging the gap and being a pivotal key player in this whole construction chain of command. That's awesome. Have you received support from other women in the industry yet?

Lindsay Fox:  21:02

Absolutely. I have received support from many. I would say that the newness of this sector of construction creates a very welcoming and receptive group of people. So kind of interesting, I measure the level of integration based on the conferences that I go to. So when I first went to an Autodesk University conference, the women's restroom line was almost non-existent, like there was nobody, there's nearly no women that were occupying the many different bathrooms at a convention center. I've gone to other more residential focused conferences, and the female representation is actually quite even. And each year that I go to these conferences, I feel like there's some lines forming at the ladies restroom. I still look over at the guys. The guys got like a 10 minute wait, like, this is unique. But I would say that, yes, I would advise any woman interested in getting into construction to really look at, you know, what organizations are out there to support you. Through the NAHB, there's the PWB, which is Professional Women Builders, I found a great group called Women in BIM, so it's And then there's NAWIC, which is the National Association of Women in Construction, which we are also a corporate member of, and they're great. I mean, each one of those groups is fantastic. But I can tell you that I have not really found resistance from men in regards to breaking through this industry. And I think that is because we have attempted to fill a gap, right? We're not attempting to replace or supplant any particular industry or profession. We are simply looking at the industry and saying, where can we amplify the strengths? And where can we create reinforcements where we are weak? So it does create a non adversarial environment, it creates a very collaborative and integrated, you know, what's the goal here, like a great product, super happy clients. And I can't tell a single builder that wants to go back for warranty work. We're reducing warranty work, you know, everybody's a fan. And then in regards to increased labor opportunities, I would say that I look at the construction statistics and see that I think there's 30% of construction rework. So you've got anywhere between 40% to 60%, of construction labor being wasted on doing something again, that we've already done. So if we can create a clearer instruction manual when we are on the construction site, and everybody really knows what they're doing. And we know that the owner is really satisfied with the product because they've already done a virtual walkthrough. And they're saying, "Yes, that's exactly where I want that wall." We're reducing rework. And we've experienced this with our builders in the residential space. They can more accurately predict their finish dates. And because we're on time, that means that everyone in the calendar that is lined up by that builder, you can expect to see that builder show up that day. And really, you know, so they're still able to create the products that they need. They're just doing it more efficiently. And the labor that is here is used much more effectively. Women in the field, I find, work better when they have clearer instructions, and they have clearer expectations. And I find that I personally in my 40s I wasn't going to go jump on a framing crew if I wanted to get into construction, but what I do have is digital framing software. Which means I can create a framing plan in my digital models and I can have a discussion with the framing sub and say, "Did you quote all that? You don't want to miss it." And they're very pleased to have that opportunity. A lot of subcontractors are much happier having a voice in the digital construction planning phase as opposed to in the field.

Grace Mase:  25:15

Absolutely. And if they need to catch those kinds of oops, moments it's much better for them versus they go back to the owners saying, "Oops, I didn't include this." And the reality is from the owner's perspective, like it's not my fault. And how are we going to solve that? Right?

Lindsay Fox:  25:31

I mean, I've been on a project for you've got the window moved three times. And now I'm not going to tell anybody that the windows never gonna move once you figure it out in digital construction, but how about maybe we limit it to one move.

Grace Mase:  25:44

I love it just in general, I love the digital approach using technology for the future. I mean, it really is today now. And how do we make sure that using technology effectively, so everyone understands, when they read the plans, when they look at the 3D models, they can see what exactly is supposed to be there. And even just from the beginning, as you mentioned, the laser scanning and storing the data, able to model based on the data, that accurate data that you provide. Then there's obviously slew of technology you've been exposed to. Where do you see the trend? How's it, I mean, where's it going as an industry?

Lindsay Fox:  26:20

The construction industry as a whole is moving closer to digitization. It's also moving closer to gamification, which is super great. So gamification of construction is inspiring to younger generations that are interested in getting into the industry. If you can turn training in the field, when you have to be a punching bag to some framing crew foreman, or if you can get some experience in a virtual environment, learning how to frame and kind of running through some of those rough spots. On that platform, it's way more comfortable. Nobody wants to make a mistake on an actual construction site. It's dangerous. So I see moving towards using the digital approach to construction to inspire new diverse groups to get into the industry. And I think that's well overdue. I do see digital construction as a whole, kind of filtering into the residential space. The challenge that I see is there are platforms to use, right. So there's lots of workflows. And when I built this company, we had to filter through what software we were going to implement, and what workflows we wanted to offer our trade partners and our homeowners. So currently on the market, you can find Matterport, which is a photogrammetry. So it's documenting an existing structure using an algorithm to create measurements, and it's got really great visuals, and then you could take that Matterport data and you can take it into a software like Chief Architect. So Chief Architect is a very user friendly digital building software. So you're getting into those three dimensional experiences for clients, you're getting the most realistic images for clients, and it's fantastic. Our preferred workflow is laser scanning, which is LIDAR technology, which is actually a laser shooting across the room and hitting back the scanner itself and going in housing the actual measurement rather than using a mathematical formula. And then we're using Autodesk Revit as our building information modeling software, in part, because it works really well with laser scan data. You can't, from my understanding, we can't get laser scan data into Chief Architect at this point. And I knew that I wanted the quantification. One of the challenges, and we can kind of go back to the bag of groceries. So you need to know how many items are in that bag of groceries. What totally geeks me out about Autodesk Revit was they were really taking it seriously to provide a platform that was easier for builders to get the quantities extracted to push that data to a builder. But now what we're doing is we're taking it right to the homeowner. It's much more digestible, for me to show a client an image of their kitchen and say, here's your backsplash, you have 60 square feet. And I can show you, in your construction documents, in this software, that you have 60 square feet. Go to the tile shop, find 60 square feet of a tile that you love, and I can get an image and I can get it all rendered and you can really feel confident selecting that. But that is the holistic approach. It is saying that we want our homeowners to have this information and we want those homeowners to be able to facilitate the building process by being very decisive. We need clients to be very decisive, but also have the visuals to do that.

Grace Mase:  29:50

Well, I think that's the brilliant part is when they have that data for them, and they can make better decisions. When they make better decisions. The long term is much better for everyone. So there's no guessing game and hoping and putting allowance. They actually, at the planning phase, you already have that cost information, knowing that this is 60 feet is $5 per square feet, they know exactly what to expect for that piece of work and plus labor and so forth. So that kind of calculation planning of the estimation to proposal is a one effort and all the way through and the construction, you know exactly what you're getting. And I think a lot of time homeowners just feel out of control of how much is it going to cost me? And there's that fear that it's going to exponentially, you know, higher costs, two, three times more than they originally planned for. And that's daunting. And I mean, when it comes to anything like this, these kinds of investments are really expensive. And so how do you manage those in a meaningful way? Knowing that there may be some changes, there may be unforeseen situations, but how do you prepare and anticipate them and make those right decisions early on, so you can actually have better results?

Lindsay Fox:  30:59

Yeah, the key here is that we are creating a platform with building information modeling for data to be housed. The key to it actually being a solution, rather than just like, another thing that someone has to learn how to do, is to get that data out. Right, then you get into the building information management, which is a software like the one you created it. That's a place for all the information to transfer, and that it's convenient for the whole project team to see it. So I can take an entire project team through a virtual tour of a structure, but you do need formatted documents that can be used for construction, that can be used for quantification. So that's where you get into the software's like yours that, you know, this is a comfortable format for everybody to kind of function on. Where I'm at a point where, it's our jobs as professionals to inspire confidence in our clients. And the way I see digital technology is simply that platform that's going to demonstrate that to our clients. That we want you informed, we want you empowered, and here's a platform that we are, we're adopting, so that so that we can have that. And we're creating a really great experience for you. Because you have these really great visuals that are just making you feel really confident that you're going to get it, that's it. And what I like about the BEYREP type software is that there's just, you're creating a platform for the client to be a construction manager. And it's interesting, because there's a lot of shows out there that you know, like kind of push off and like the owners like to walk in great, beautiful experience, they love everything about it. In reality, if you're the creative mind behind a product, there is no realistic way for you to totally offload the management of that project. You will need to be a construction manager in some way, in some form, regardless of how you attempt to delegate. So creating a platform for the model to exist and be used by the project team. For the information from the model to permeate through your material suppliers, your subcontractors, your building professionals, all of that unlocks the challenges, and you know, like it eases the pain that exists in construction. And construction is a super fun experience. And I would like the process leading up to construction and the actual construction process to be as fun as the outcome. My clients love living in their new kitchens, they love their new additions. They love that their historic home that I worked on, the addition that we put on that we're going to be putting onto it, you know, really pays homage to the historic structure that they kind of fell in love with, and they got to see it all before real structures begin.

Grace Mase:  33:59

I just love it even just, as you discuss all the, how important, laser scanning all that data, creating the 3D modeling. From the 3D modeling, mapping out all the details of what it costs every aspect of the project, and having that information then carry on to some like BEYREP where we could post all this information, and carry it all the way through. Right? Yeah, that container is almost like that grocery bag. It's all the information you packed into that grocery bag and be able to say, Alright, this is contained. And you know exactly what's in there. And when you're, as you're putting things up, you know exactly how it's gonna look, because you already saw it before with your 3D models. And you know exactly what the cost associated with it because you already planned for it during that early stage. And having that information carry all the way through every person touching this project, to have that same knowledge. When they're with that same information and one source of truth really, they become more effective at communicating and have the same understanding. Not a whole lot of he said, she said, there's a previous document, but then there was I got this email. But then there was another version that got approved. And so I'm confused. The 30%, like you mentioned of the waste that happens, right at those moments where the data is not handled correctly. People are not on the same page, and they end up having a different understanding, walking away and constructing something that's not what the homeowner wants. But what was originally planned for. And that's where the frustration comes in. There's no reason to have all that you mentioned about no change orders. Having that positive experience, no struggle, or stress throughout the project. That's what everyone should have.

Lindsay Fox:  35:37

I would like it to be. I mean, that's where we, that's the goal. I mean, I certainly have changed orders on some projects. And, you know, I just say, if you're buying construction is a luxury product. Even if you're doing it economically, and you're trying to not like to blow the budget on a particular thing. Being able to create a structure is a pretty unique and rare opportunity. And if you were told by like a luxury car dealer, that no, you just have to take it, that's the way it is imagine it and now pay me and go drive it off. Like that, that wouldn't be acceptable. We need to as professionals, I would say in the BIM industry, find a nice platform to speak about, you know, what building information modeling is, what the digital construction process is. Which is basically, so you have a building information model, but then there's a whole construction process behind it, that's leveraging the information that's in that. And that's where you move in information management platforms like BEYREP, and you get that holistic experience for clients. And it makes me happy. It's so nicely organized,

Grace Mase:  36:45

Well actually, you talk about luxury. In reality, I have to say it is slightly different. Thinking about home is what we're ongoing maintenance, or improvements. Just like your health, you go to see a doctor, you have your physical checkup, you may want to do something different to improve your health. But what we do is we're improving the health of the house that you're living in, and the environment matters to you. Because it really could change a person's attitude. Just think about when you have this newly remodeled kitchen or new addition, or just walk in that space versus the old space, you know the difference. You feel different, when you come home to see a nice, you know, completely rebuilt house. And that itself is the health of a person that's occupying a space. And so we can do when we help them increase their, improve their mental health, improve their just overall health, I mean better material selected, so they don't have to inhale any kind of toxic in the building materials. And those are all improvements to their health. So as much as I want to consider it a luxury but taking care of improving your health is not a luxury, it's a necessity.

Lindsay Fox: 37:56

Well, that's where we are. So what happens is, is that sometimes the aesthetics of the home take hierarchy, take precedence, over the systems of the home. And a lot of that comes from things like just the pace of construction, and you know, the deadlines and such that we need to go through. I personally believe that we all lose, if we're battling on cost, that we're just going to drop our quality to a point where we are having unhealthy homes. And if we can take a breath, realize that building information modeling exists, that laser scanning is cost effective and available to people that are looking to make modifications to their homes. We use laser scanning to laser scans to document new construction after the mechanicals are put in. Because once the drywall is up, you're kind of lost, you're flying blind. I mean, there's technologies that kind of help you see where the water lines are supposed to be. But no, it's not great. So we'll use laser scanning on new construction, following mechanical installation so that we can have, you know, a really accurate documentation of where everything is behind these walls. And when you're taking a more thoughtful approach to construction, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're adding more costs, you're creating better efficiencies. So I mean, our experience is that we've pretty much neutralized our fees in the savings that we've demonstrated to our clients, and we wouldn't have builders working with us if their margins were too small. So they're very comfortable with the margins they're able to make in their construction projects, and the owners are very comfortable with the construction costs that the builders that we use are quoting them. And we have some historical cost data that we can help inform like, yeah, that is a reasonable amount for you to be charged for the installation of your hardwood floor when you've got 3000 square feet of it. I mean, you know, those types of conversations have to happen early. You know, everybody's on the same page there. But yeah, having a really healthy home I think means that you're taking a minute to understand, and this is where a homeowner needs to be a construction manager to some degree, is saying that if you're forcing that builder to reduce his bid in order to get your project, he will likely find areas in your home that you won't see, for him to save money. And those aren't necessarily places where you want him to cut corners, you want really solid systems in your house, you don't want mold. I mean, I have an analogy that's a little dark. But like, let's make a box. And it's let's put a fire starter in, let's put a fuel in there and the most destructive force in the world, which is water, and let's put it in a box that is not heat resistant, fire resistant, nor water resistant, put it in that box. And then let's spend 90% of our energy, making sure that that wrapping on the box and the bow on that box, is super pretty. They're like, "What, no. No." Like, I get really enthusiastic about some cabinetry and some color schemes, but I want a really thoughtful, well planned installation of my home's systems. And for a builder to be able to have that thoughtful conversation with the owner that says, I'm not just building this home for you. I am building this for the families that will come after you. And you know, there's certain standards, I will not budge on. And I would be doing you a disservice if I did that. And again, these are the moments that we get to have in the digital construction planning phase. Or you can say, understand that this is where we want you to have a really quality product, and it needs to represent the build company as well as it represents the homeowners interest.

Grace Mase:  41:45

Man, I could talk to you all day long. I mean, no, I just love everything you do is really representing both parties. And similar to what we're doing too, is make sure that both parties or everyone that's involved is on the same page. And have the confidence and respect for each other and also respect the structure that they're creating together. Because ultimately, this will last longer than the building lasts longer than many of us. How do we make sure that we do the best for everyone that's involved, and also respect the building as well. And for a long lasting legacy that's created by all parties, that's pretty special. And as a homeowner continue to live in the space, creating memories with the family, and knowing peacefully that this is going to be a healthy building. And they will be healthy for many years as they live there. And that's a powerful moment for them to realize.

Lindsay Fox:  42:40

It is a very powerful moment. And it is important to think about and we're getting there. I mean, honestly, digital construction technology, the software has been around for 20 years. For me, it was sort of like let's get in there, let's do this. I mean, we've run through like a lot. I mean, it's gone through some test cases. I mean, they were able to scan Notre Dame Cathedral. And I know Autodesk University, or Autodesk donated the building information model of Notre Dame. And now they're in the process of reconstruction. So I'm really excited to see how that's all coming together. And I know they're going to be doing research and studies to kind of, you know, test and see where things are improving. Ultimately, it was let's try just building a house.

Grace Mase:  43:27

Let's start with the basics.

Lindsay Fox:  43:29

Let's do a laser scan. Let's do a building information model. Let's see if we've got builders that will advocate for this. Let's see if homeowners want this. Let's see if we can offset our costs in the planning phase, and you know, troubleshooting that would have cost them thousands of dollars. I've certainly done that. I've had clients that were trying to determine their window layout on an addition and we discovered that the as-built documents that the architects had were not accurate. But I had done a laser scan, and I had found that they had bought those particular windows, they would have been too big to accommodate the addition. So the window order was adjusted and the windows weren't wrong. And we didn't have to worry about getting new windows in that would slow down the project. All of that was alleviated in a very comfortable manner by having a laser scan and a digital model and homeowners are like so excited to have discovered those problems, before they paid thousands of dollars for their windows.

Grace Mase:  44:33

I can imagine for them just thank goodness that you were there to help navigate through those kinds of decisions.

Lindsay Fox:  44:38

I was happy to.

Grace Mase:  44:41

Well, I'm sure people are dying to, after hearing this they would really like to get to know you, and how to get in touch with you, to work with you. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Lindsay Fox:  44:50

So our website is TIVER Revit spelled backwards. And we, you can find me on, we're on Instagram. We do have a Facebook page. And, you know, I'm working with you and BEYREP to try and create a nice portfolio for us to be represented in your company, which is super exciting. I'm very glad you found me. And I do find that our values very much align in what we're attempting to do for homeowners. And there are ways for homeowners to be very effective construction project managers, and there's information that I would like homeowners to have when they're going out, and they're attempting to purchase digital construction technology. And then you need to start asking questions of your design professionals. What platforms are you using to create my documents? Who owns those documents? Do I have access to that file? One of the workflows that we've seen that gotten traction for this kind of digital image is using SketchUp. Using AutoCAD and SketchUp, combined, it was very effective. However, the challenge was, and you had said like, you'd use the phrase single source of truth. So we use a single file source. So when you have two platforms that you're creating construction information in. So you've got the visuals that were created in SketchUp. And you've got the construction documents that were created in AutoCAD, that's two separate software that your project is being developed in. And when you have inconsistencies between maintenancing the visual model, and the construction document file, that will translate to challenges in the field. And you will say, you're looking at a picture and saying it's supposed to look like this. And those documents say this. And I know construction crews that have said, "Which one do you want?" Because we can't have this because there's an HVAC system running here. And it's going to make that pretty picture look very different. Trying to think about like the, you know, some thoughtful questions to ask your design professionals. We're in the process of adding some of that content onto our website to help homeowners be discerning and thoughtful consumers of the design and construction products and process. But I really would encourage homeowners to kind of just start googling what they're doing with building information modeling, laser scanning. It's changing the field and I love seeing it.

Grace Mase:  47:20

And you're giving power back to them.

Lindsay Fox:  47:24

I hope so! It's been one of my slogans. I haven't landed on a slogan yet. Maybe I'll come in, we'll do a poll. We've got a couple different ones going and there was a "Inform Empower, Build confidence into every project," I tend to like, "See it, Manage it, Build it," because see, seeing it really does empower you to start making adjustments.

Grace Mase:  47:45

Well, thank you so much for your time, Lindsay, you've been fantastic. And thank you everyone for listening to this episode of Revivify Podcast, where we got a chance to learn so much from Lindsay Fox, the founder and CEO of Tiver Built LLC. She has already helped so many homeowners, design professionals, and building professionals to improve the overall process for home building. I hope you enjoy her innovative ideas and are encouraged that these real changes are possible. It's already in the works. Thanks again for listening.

Lindsay Fox: 48:15

Start asking for it. Because the more you ask for it, the more, they'll be like, Oh, yeah, we can do that. And they need to sort of have to really be a little more discerning and saying, Wait a minute, wait a minute. How are you doing it?

Grace Mase:  48:28

To be an educated homeowner is key to a successful project.

Lindsay Fox: 48:33

And I would encourage any woman in the industry or looking to go into the industry to take a look at And then there's like I said a NAWIC and PWB. I've always told my friend that I was going to do this. So I'm a member of the board for Daystar Kids, which is a Rochester based respite care for medically fragile children. So that's and if you are interested, take a look at it because it's one of the few facilities that support families post NICU space. It helps those parents get the support that they need because honestly parenting is incredibly difficult. And when you have a medically fragile child or complex medical issues, it's even harder. So, take a look,

Grace Mase:  49:16

Well thank you for sharing. And thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.